So. I'm taking a class this term on Christian Approaches to Bioethics. It's damn interesting - seeing all the different viewpoints, from what many would term "batshit crazy" (Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists) to the more ostensibly reasonable Catholics, etc. Anywho.
My most recent paper was on "backdoor eugenics". Basically, we can now do early embryonic genetic testing that can detect a number of genetic defects, including Down Syndrome. The statistics are that around 92% of embryos shown to have these defects are aborted. Therefore, the author's argument went, this kind of testing and the resultant abortions demonstrate the de facto societal norm that some embryos are "worth" less than others, and that this kind of early genetic testing leads to a kind of eugenics through the back door.
While I was sorely tempted to entitle my paper "Backdoor Eugenics Sluts 9", it's actually a pretty interesting subject. And contentious! And after the excellent discussion after the rape-issue post, I'd really appreciate hearing you guy's views on this kind of thing.
So. Lots of heinous crimes have historically gone down in the name of bettering the human species via selectively getting it on. Can eugenics be a good thing? Is there a point where it's just or right to tell people that they can't have their own babies, even if those babies are going to come out with spina bifida or some other disorder I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy? Damned if I know. My paper couldn't cover all the various and sundry issues like overpopulation, issues of abortions in general vs. abortions for selective genetic reasons, and other concerns. So! Discuss!
26 comments:
I agree with the author's argument. Those embryos are indeed worth less, and this does indeed lead to a backdoor eugenics.
Therefore, I think we should be doing this testing whole-heartedly.
And yes, I think it's not only "just" to tell parents that they can't have defective children, it should be our duty to do so. You mentioned overpopulation. Hell, helping to lessen such a massive problem is only one of the many advantages to weeding out these genetic mistakes.
Some people like to give me the bullshit about how embryos and fetuses have rights and are just as human as you and I. Bull. Fucking. Shit. I don't know about you, but I sure don't remember when I split my first cell or when I grew a new limb. Actually, I do know about you. You don't remember that either. Nobody does. As something that was but a glimmer of possible sentience, I couldn't have possibly cared if I had been aborted or killed. (I use this argument for animals too, btw. They don't show a consciousness in the way we do. But that's a different discussion.)
So basically I think it's ridiculous that we as a race even question whether we should go forward with technology and developments that lead to our betterment as a species.
Also Pete, I want to hear what these "heinous crimes" were. Indulge me.
Fucking hippies, bitching about world peace and love and saving whales. If you'd let the scientists do their jobs, soon they'll be able to impose positive, friendly dispositions on every human born to this rotten planet.
I'd love to be genetically happy. That would own.
Um...I wasn't exactly being a hippy (since I agree with a lot of what you said). I was talking about 1920s America's forced sterilization of poor people and other "undesirables," and Nazi Germany's forced sterilization of blacks, homosexuals, and handicapped people (many of whom were not disabled due to genetic issues).
I hope these are things we can agree on as bad? And yes, forced sterilization is part of eugenics - as much a part as selectively aborting fetuses or tweaking with the genome Gattaca-style.
Eugenics is too much of a slippery slope for me, I don't know if I can properly debate this topic. I was discussing this with Brittany before bed last night and I couldn't find a position I was happy with.
Oh, and @Hans. The Nazis have a long list of heinous crimes committed against Humanity in the name of eugenics, you might want to read up on them.
oh I wasn't directing the hippy paragraph to you peter, just those types of hippies in general. I'm sure you know the types. It just came at a point right after I was curious about the heinous crimes against humanity.
I agree, the nazis committed heinous crimes. I don't agree that the crimes were "against humanity." The crimes they committed were against groups of individuals. Crimes against humanity, in my opinion, would be crimes that seek to achieve a weakening of our race instead of a strengthening and improvement. The ideas of eugenics that the nazis had... I tend to agree with. I just don't agree with their methods or their selections.
Forced sterilization sounds awfully nasty, but we can all agree there are people we know that just shouldn't fucking spawn. It's this kind of idea that I'm talking about. How do you go about keeping certain people from breeding? How do you tell some people, "Hey, you're just too damn stupid. You can't have any kids.", without killing them outright or lopping off their balls? I don't know. I wish I did, then I could make the world a much better place.
I think the key to improvement in humanity as a species lies in exactly what we were talking about earlier. Backdoor eugenics. Nobody is getting hurt or murdered or castrated by this. At least, not any more than we are already.
As an afterthought, these are the types of programs that I think government should be putting money into. Poke's thoughts on government's place in our lives I like, when it comes to the minimalistic approach. Basically, government is there to work for the people.
Anyways, I just figure this is a much more worthy cause than running about and trying to police the world of humanity's problems. Let's fix things for the future in a positive way, not mess shit up now with delusions of grandeur.
No, I can not agree with "we can all agree there are people we know that just shouldn't fucking spawn." So, don't include me in the 'we'.
Most of your position is why I said eugenics is too much of a slippery slope. Unfortunately, I am at work and I can not write an essay right now.
Also; the atrocities the Nazis committed are indeed crimes against Humanity, to paint them with any lesser words is detestable.
I have to go with Andy on this one. If what the Nazis did weren't crimes against humanity, I don't really know what is. Assaulting an entire ethnic or sexual group simply because you don't think they're equal to the rest of humanity? Or to your tiny little Aryan branch of humanity? That's a crime against humanity.
Also, yes. Hans, I know what you mean - there are some things that almost everyone would want removed from the world if possible - if all people with Down syndrome could miraculously be cured, I don't think you'd find many people who wouldn't desire that. But there are also people who would, if they had the power, choose to "cure" homosexuals, or other races. And since "curing" such non-disorders is impossible (unless you're Michael Jackson), the next step is sometimes forced sterilization.
Basically, even though I agree we should take steps to limit the transmission of genetic disorders, we should also do it in as non-judgmental a way as possible, because there's a very real thought that devaluing a condition can lead to devaluing people WITH that condition. Just a thought.
Also, as an interesting side-point: sickle-cell anemia is a genetic disorder prevalent among blacks. Now, a large proportion of blacks are carriers for this disorder, but only a very small percentage actually develop the disorder and its debilitating symptoms.
Here's where it gets complicated: the carrier gene for sickle-cell anemia grants substantial resistance to malaria. Not that many people die of sickle-cell, and MANY people would have died throughout history from malaria without the resistance granted by the carrier gene.
So: is the sickle-cell gene bad?
I fucking hate issues like this.
So did our class, heh. There's no good answer, it's mostly just an excuse to debate.
wow, I'm surprised Andy. You really think anyone and everyone should be able to have children?
I certainly don't.
As for my thoughts on eugenics being detestable; so be it. Sacrifices have to be made to better the human race. And bettering, in my opinion, consists of purging the defects and imperfections from our gene pools.
That sounds pretty calous, one might say. The methods to achieve these goals do not have to be atrocious. Most of the time, controlled parenting would be sufficient. For everything else, we can work on cellular levels before morals would apply to a living, breathing, thinking person.
Yes, they should have the choice and it shouldn't be up to you or a committee to decide who gets to. The Universe is a messy place of natural selection, and I prefer that method over some nut choosing what is best for me and my own.
Are you surprised that I value life? What are defects and imperfections, Hans? Is ALS(Lou Gehrig’s disease) an imperfection? If it is then great minds like Steven Hawking wouldn't have made it past the fetal stage. What's good for humanity can be found in the strangest places sometime. I leave it up to God.
A costly mistake.
I fucking hate Peter's school, Poke.
Ohh, c'mon. Poke will argue for days about political stuff, this is just a change of pace.
lol
I think it's time to respec into the Burning Down Pete's School tree.
Im going to take Chain spec.
Is there a talent that increases crit chance with molotav cocktails?
Why did this turn into destroy-my-school, 2006 edition? Maybe I just need to go eugenics on your asses. And learn Neighborhood Relocation Technique.
I think people want to destroy your school because it encourages thought.
I'm just on the bandwagon of hating and setting ablaze pete's school for social acceptance and approval.
A costly mistake!
lol
We can still chase you if you use NRT. You'd need some sort of First Age Hippie Artifact made out of hemp to stop my to stop my Carlton-Shattering Typhoon.
Carlton-Shattering Typhoon
Cost: 6 motes, 1 Will
Duration: One Turn
Type: Simple
Min MA: 7
Min Ess: 7
Prereqs: Burning Touch of the Oiled Chain, The Glorious Spirit Form
The character's fists blur as she pounds them against the air, shattering the currents of the world and casting a storm of broken and burning Essence towards her foes. Any hippie or liberal thing in front of her suffers either 15 dice of aggravated damage. If they survive the damage, the immediately are effected with a Third Circle Disease similar to Pattern Spider Touch and are transformed into a Essence 1 frat dude with a 3 dot Resistance speciality in Consuming Alcohol. This is an unblockable, undodgeable effect. For each turn the Exalt continuosly performs this Charm, the effects strech to another Hippie/Liberal school.
Whew...good thing I'm not a liberal.
Post a Comment